Please read the interview with Alfie Kohn titled Punished by Rewards in additon to watching these videos. Comment about how you feel about grades, school and learning. When was the last time you felt intrinsically motivated to learn something new, or excited about something you were learning? Do you agree that the hunt for grades is not about learning but about being told how well you are doing at 'learning'? If grades do not represent real learning, what do they represent? what should they represent? Is there any way to have a school without grades? How would that work? Is there anyway to foster an interest in putting effort into actually learning things rather than just fostering putting effort into getting grades?
podcast
Saturday, February 21, 2009
Intrinsic v. Extrinsic Motivation
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After reading "Punished by Rewards?", A Conversation with Alfie Kohn I have found that I agree with Mr. Kohn on many levels when it comes to the "push and pull" us humans have towards education and during our learning experiences.
ReplyDeleteAlfie disagrees with how there are systems of reward and punishment which in his opinion, hurts the student or child more then it helps them. In society and within the school system everyone is given a "letter" or a "number" that corresponds to how a child does at a particular subject. Honestly, I do not like how we are labeled a certain way and that we should ALL strive for a certain grade in order to become succesful.
We all have our own strengths and weaknesses and while some of us may be very good at keeping up with the homework and demonstrating time management, at the same time they could struggle with tests or remembering things for quizes which could hinder their future because of a minor flaw.
We all have our own attributes to bring to the table and can be succesful doing what we enjoy doing and what we may do best (or even better than many others). That is why I believe the grading system that is currently installed in school systems is somewhat flawed. Their could be a genious in the making, someone who one day could help save thousands, if not millions of lives, and yet their sitting at a C or low B range. While someone who is able to memorize things for a day or two for tests and keep up with day to day homework and get an A, has a better "chance" of becoming succesful then the other individual.
-Cory P.-
intrinsic motivation - something that motivates you from the inside. like your consience.
ReplyDeleteextrinsic motivation - something that motivates you externally (Money). like when a dog gets shocked by an invisible fence.
kids focusing on learning and how well they are doing. schools who are more concerned about achievement performance cause the students to have less interst when they get rewarded.
the schrute bucks- more you reward someone for doing something, the less interest that person will tend to have in whatever he/she is rewarded to do. rewarding people for doing something causes less interest for the people involved. so this podcast is saying that students shouldn't be rewarded for mindless work, when the reward has no motivation.
Sarah Borchardt
3rd hour
I agree with the videos because I tend to only care about what will get me the grade that I want and I typically do not go any further in my studies beyond what is necessary for the class. I have never read a chapter in a text book that wasn’t assigned by the teacher in order to learn more. I just do what is told for me to do.
ReplyDelete-John O'Dea per. 6
The first video was interesting, because I agree with the man. Students are interested in what they are earning instead of figuring out what they are doing. I also agree with the statement that schools that pride themselves with numbers aren't the best intellectual enviroments. These factors take away from our understanding of what we are suppose to learn.
ReplyDeleteThe second video is very funny in the way that it humorizes the classroom, but the important point that is made is that giving rewards takes away from a student's creativity.
Irwinpreet Singh Bagri P.3
When i watched the videos, they really helped me understand how bribeing kids makes them less interested in what they were doing for the reward. From my own experience, when teachers give candy for the first person who finishes their inclass work, the only thing i am thinking about is the candy. I want to finish the work as fast as i can because i want to be the one who gets the reward. By doing so, i put no detailed thoughts or creativity into my work which in the end, i realize that i learned nothing. There was no modivation what so ever that "pushed" or "pulled" me to do good on the work or project. All i wanted to do was finish in a short period of time. In the office video, the Schrute bucks were worthless to the employees because they wernt worth anything. The employees ended up lowering their standars to the bare minumum because the modivation to work was decreased. Employees are modivated by the real money that they make for a living. Not a silly reward that gives them some extra lunch time. When teachers want their students to be modivated, they should be pushed by their own drives to become a better person and student. Haveing a smart mind can be a personal drive that makes a great student even better. the mix between Internal Pushes and External Pulls, could be the answer that many teachers have been questioning.
ReplyDeleteKatelyn Reynolds
Period 3
Extrinsic motivation causes us to lose our natural intrinsic motivation. For example: the article talked about how grades are counterproductive in the long run; they can cause us to lose our natural desire to learn. Rewards are most damaging to interest when the task is already intrinsically motivating.
ReplyDeleteI think the grading system negatively affects the learning process. School should be about what we are learning not how well we are learning it. Rewards and punishments in the classroom setting create competition between students for the best grade or the highest praise.
Kelly Dunn 3rd Period
I feel that a lot of what Kohn said made a ton of sense. It was really interesting at first when he put rewards and punishment together and said that they both manipulate you by allowing the things we enjoy to control our behavior. A lot of his interview was more aimed towards teachers I felt and trying to explain to them how to better motivate students. From my perspective it just points out everything that is wrong with the educational system. I feel like I haven’t been intrinsically motivated to learn for a long time because rewards have been a part of the curriculum for a while now. I agree that grades are much more about how well you do ‘learning’, but grades should really represent how well you grasp the material which is what tests aim to do but don’t really accomplish. A school without grades would be one that had Kohn’s 3 C’s in which people would be so motivated to learn the would most likely come out with all the information necessary, unfortunately our society is so based on grades that wouldn’t help. Our society, as demonstrated in ‘The Office’ is also misunderstood for being driven by rewards, when really it’s just making you less interested in what actually matters. Intrinsic motivation like curiosity can easily drive someone to want to learn more, but you need to be motivated for the right reasons otherwise you forget what you’re ultimate goal is, it’s not the grade, it’s the knowledge you gain.
ReplyDeleteTara Dusneith
1st Hour
The first video was interesting, because I agree with the man. Students are interested in what they are earning instead of figuring out what they are doing. I also agree with the statement that schools that pride themselves with numbers aren't the best intellectual environments. These factors take away from our understanding of what we are suppose to learn.
ReplyDeleteThe second video is very funny in the way that it humorizes the classroom, but the important point that is made is that giving rewards takes away from a student's creativity. However, I do not think there is a way to have a school with out any grades, because of the competition to get into a good college. The only way to have a schooling system that doesn't require schools, would be a school that teaches you for the sake of the student's learning. However, there still has to be an assessment to differentiate between students. I've never been intrinsically motivated to learn, because learning is directly correlated with grades. Though I do like to learn about things we wouldn't learn in school. For example, I like to learn about different cultures and history about different regions.
Irwinpreet Singh Bagri P.3
I agree with Alfie Kohn on most of his points. I think that intrinsic motivation is the only way for real powerful learning to happen, but I disagree with the fact that all extrinsic motivators hurt the learning process. I don't know if I am the only one, but getting A's, and having my parents give me more freedom because of them, is very motivating. I might not enjoy learning as much but I still learn the material. It is irrelevant to say that trying to get good grades is not about learning, because either way learning happens in the process.
ReplyDeleteAlthough grades can be a strong motivator, they should not be. The entire definition of what success is at almost all schools is completely out of whack because it isn't fair for people that aren't as gifted. Schools need grades to measure effort, but they should measure just that, not natural intelligence. Teachers should provide students with oppurtunities to show that they care so that the people that care get good grades and more oppurtunities. The worst motivator of all is when less gifted students work extremely hard and come up behind the naturally gifted students who don't care. Getting the system right is the first step to motivating students.
DAvid Nolan per 3
Amy Johnson 1st hour
ReplyDeleteI do see how what Alfie was saying about how children want to learn in the early ages of school, and as soon as grades appear, that "want" for learning disappears. I think that is very obvious in a school so competitive as ours, where the competition on who is doing the best in the class, or who got the best test score, is all that many students care about. Many of us, including myself, have gone from learning information because we want to, to learning it to get the grade. It is very hard for me to remember the last time that I was intrinsically motivated to learn something. I can remember in eighth grade biology when we were studying small organisms that I was truly interested in learning about and observing them, and I was not doing it to get a good grade on the test we were having, but other than that I cannot think of a time.
I do feel that grades are more about how well you can remember or memorize something, not about how much you have actually learned on that subject. Many people study the information enough to pass the test and get the grade, an then the info is forgotten shortly after. I don't think there could be a way to have school without grades because everyone is so used to using grades as their motivation. I think the only way it would work would be to introduce a no grade policy starting from the very beginning of schooling, so the initial intrinsic motivation remains. But I also feel that it will not always work, because even with grades, there are still the few that don't care.
The last time that I was intrinsically motivated to learn something is when the learning is not too difficult. For example, I enjoy learning photography because it isn't as hard of a work load as my other classes. I do enjoy reading some of the books in our English classes if they are interesting or learning about some of the interesting findings in psychology, especially if it is a video. This is because I'm interested in these topics without the extra motivation of grades. When it comes to tests, though, I study hard to get good grades to go to a good college. Grades are an extrinsic motivation that subsitute for the intrinsic motivation of learning. I think that it would be ideal to have a school without grades so students would learn to learn. This could possibly be achieved by teaching the students interesting things and stuff that they can relate to. Then, the students would want to learn the information. It would also be helpful if the homework wasn't tedious and time consuming but interesting and maybe even fun. I think that it would be very difficult to make a school without grades. Even though they aren't the best to instrinsically motivate us they do get the job done and force people to take school seriously and learn the information.
ReplyDelete-Amy M. 6th hr
While I do agree that the best way to learn something is through intrinsic motivation, I can see why grades are necessary at our school.
ReplyDeleteFrom my own experience, when I am actually interested or curious about something, I can usually remember everything about it with little or no studying. The last time I felt intrinsically motivated was probably in English because I actually find it interesting. If I pay attention in class and take notes during interrelated arts, then I usually have little problem recalling what we have learned. However, while I am sitting in my math class, I have absolutely no intrinsic motivation. I have to focus on concentrating because I dislike the subject, and I only pay attention to get a good grade.
I think that this demonstrates how grades are not really about learning but about being told how well you are doing at "learning." I only pay attention in math to get a good grade and I have found it is possible to get a good grade without understanding the material. If students do not understand the material, they haven't learned it, even it they have a good grade.
Grades do not always represent real learning, they can also represent how good a person is at doing what they are told to do, expected to do, and how well they can follow directions.
Grades should represent understanding. In most cases they do, but it is possible to get around that.
Unfortunately, it isn't really possible to have a school without grades. If grades were not at stake, and there was no way to measure my progress, I would not choose to learn about math. If a school used a system were no grades were used, how well a person does would be entirely subjective in an environment where everyone wants fairness.
I think that grades are important to pull students along when they need some extra motivation. However as Alfie Kohn stated in "Punished by Rewards," learning could be made more interesting if teachers allow learning "emerge from the real-life interests and concerns of the kids." Relating subject matter to the lives of the students, or to something of interest fosters learning rather than just earning a grade.
-Emily Rappleye 6th Hour
heehee it says im the first one to post, i hope im in the right place, anyway..........
ReplyDeleteI agree with Alfie Kohn's lecture on rewards and motivation. I see this all the time and have experienced it myself. I even noticed myself getting bored with school when offered rewards. In my second grade class we would get french fries at the start of class. If we were good we got to keep the french fries. If we did something bad, like express an idea, we had our french fries taken away. The whole class could see the french fry board and see if you lost a fry. Wow that was a repressed memory, good for me. Back on task, a solution i thought up was to completely abolish grades for younger students. I want to do a "1984" style revamp of the system. In 10 years students wont even know what grades are. Imagine a world with no grades. -----kevin k
I believe that in society today there is too much pressure on getting good grades. School has turned into a game of who can get the best grade and have the most success instead of putting an emphasis on actual learning. Students focus too much on grades rather than learning. I agree with the first video when it said, "The more kids are led to focus on how well they're doing, the less engaged they tend to be with what they're doing." Rewards, such as grades, in school only cause students to become less interested in learning.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I felt intrinsically motivated to learn something new was in third grade during science class. My teacher had a way of making learning fun and we never really got grades. We did a lot of hands on activities. Our class got crayfish to study, which was interesting and really fun to learn about at the time.
I agree that the hunt for grades is not about learning but about being told how well you are doing. A student's grade doesn't necessarily reflect how much they are learning. It reflects how much they study the night before a test or how much effort they put into a project just to get a good grade. Grades aren't about how much you have learned anymore. People strive to do well in school just for rewards, such as grades, instead of wanting to actually learn. I think grades should represent how much effort someone is putting into learning during class and shouldn't focus mainly on tests.
I don't think that there is any way to have a school without grades. However, I think that schools should change the content of the curriculum to make it more interesting. By making school more interesting and fun, students might focus more on putting effort into actually learning. Also, I think that teachers should stop praising students that do great work because it only leads to competition within the class.
Allison Beveridge, period 1
I have found Alfie Kohn's points on learning and motivation to be entirely correct; once you think about them, they make complete sense. For example, in classes I have found to be boring or pointless, I can become very lazy in completing my assignments, doing only the bare minimum so as to achieve an A.
ReplyDeleteAs I have become older and older, I have noticed that the focus of my education has become much more intrinsic than it was back in middle school and grade school. I think that this is due to the fact that I am now able to pick classes that interest me, and because I actually care about these classes, I put more effort into them and come out with a better understanding of the curriculum.
This is what grades should be based off of--how thoroughly a student understandes the concepts/material discussed in class. Grades today are a representation of how correctly a student has answered a question in a class. It is very easy to write down the right answer to a question without taking any meaning from that answer.
Although the grading system may not be the best solution, I feel that some sort of evaluation system is necessary for determining how well a student comprehends a class and also for the process of accepting people into college.
The only way to really foster a love of learning is to put the curriculum into an interesting context. For example, I do best in classes where the teacher is interesting and the work is turned into fun activities. Otherwise, students will quickly become bored with a subject and quickly lose any interest in it.
Sarah Khalil, Period 1
I totally agree with both the videos I just listened to! Grades just get students caught up with what level they are at in school and if they are known as "smart" because they get straight A's. In the first video I liked how the speaker explained that when a reward like a grade is involved kids get so caught up in how they are doing they forget how or what they are actually learning about to begin with. THis seems like grades almost defeat the actual purpose of really learning in school. Learning for the sake of learning is what should really count. Our focus should be having a passion to constantly open your mind to new ideas and taking them with you for the rest of your life. Rewards shouldn't be the reason to make us want to learn.Kids have different interests and exploring those different areas is what matters. I can't wait for the day when colleges won't even really care about your grades or test scores. Instead they want to really get to know you as a person through a story or lesson your have learned from.
ReplyDeleteJayne Jaderholm, period 6
After reading the articles and watching the movie clips, I agree that the best way to motivate children is with the intrinsic motivators and not with rewards and punishments. However, I think it is difficult for teachers when they're expected to teach the kids certain material because obviously not everyone will be interested by it. The only alternative is to give them another reason to do it, like grades. I can say that I have felt intrinsically motivated by some subjects, but not all. Everyone has different interest but generally until you are out of highschool, you have to learn a set curriculum. I think this is good because it gives everyone the same basic knowledge and lets you explore different areas to see what you might later want to study. In college, you can choose your major based on what interests you and what you want to do and hopefully be intrinsically motivated.
ReplyDeleteGrades do not represent learning. They may not intrisically motivate you but they certainly do motivate you in some way and I think many kids need this to help them learn the basic knowlege that comes with K-12 schooling.
I think a school without grades could be successful if it had the right type of kids. I think many would take advantage of this system and it would only work for those who really had a desire to learn.
Teachers can work on trying to motivate students in ways besides grades by making the learning more fun and using more creativity instead of a normal classroom lecture. Applying things to your life makes you actaully think that what your learning is useful instead of learning to get the grade and then forgetting what you have learned.
-Stef Tollefsen Period 3
Catie W. Period: 6
ReplyDeleteI believe that grades severely hinder a student's academic experience. I can personally attest to becoming so caught up in doing everything possible to scratch out an A in a particular class that the material becomes completely irrelevant, and the focus shifts from gaining interesting and useful knowledge to completing each task and studying each test to its finest point not to learn as much as possible, but to memorize as much as possible. There is a difference.
In a perfect world, there would be no grades and the knowledge gained would be the only bar of expectation. I often wish that grades were eliminated because I truly feel that if so, I would be able to actually digest what is being taught, wrestle with it, then apply such teachings to a later concept or scenario. However, the shift from grades to no grades would be dramatic, to say the least. I fear that for a substantial amount of time students would feel even less motivated to perform in school. The classic line of "but this doesn't even count for anything" would become the most commonly used complaint, but I like to think that eventually, the scale would reach an ultimate equilibrium and we would find ourselves in a refreshed and even more successful world, where bright, creative, unique minds would become something of a second nature to us all.
I feel intrinsically motivated in my drawing/painting classes both this year and last year because we don't really think about grades in that class. Instead, we focus on learning the techniques that interest us. That class is also a safe learning environment where we give eachother feedback and criticism as well as receive it from our teacher. It shows all of the qualities of Kohn’s three Cs.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the “hunt for grades” is all about living up to expectations of those with more power (teachers, parents, colleges, etc.). This means that grades really represent how well a student’s behavior is manipulated by authority figures. They can’t really represent anything else because they are a secondary reinforcer.
The ideal school would be one without grades because grades are extrinsic motivators which lead to a great loss of interest in learning. One possible way to do that is to teach children the fundamentals (math, English, science, etc.) in elementary school, but have each teacher use different techniques. The students start off by trying out each technique and then choosing their favorite, and will have the option to switch classes at any time they want. Then, by middle school, they can decide what they are truly interested in and enroll in whatever classes they want. Judging by the research findings in the Kohn article, if the students do not have any extrinsic motivators (grades), they will learn better and produce better quality work, and there will be no need for grades.
-Karen Hays, period 6
I definitely agree with Alfie Kohn and his idea that children have a desire to learn until grades become more important. I think that his theories are extremely evident in our society today. There are very few moments in school where I am driven by excitement to learn. I know that I am not the only person who is motivated by grades and the rewards that good grades bring. The way our school system is set up, we become trained to cram information until a test and once the test is over, the information is lost. Retaining information and applying information are not skills that are readily taught. Unfortunately, grades do not represent true learning. They seem to represent some kind of temporary learning; a pat on the back for memorizing a few facts that slip out of your brain the minute they are no longer of use to you. I can honestly say that almost every subject that I have been taught over the years, I rarely retain more than the slightest bit of information from. Elementary school was the last time I can remember learning for the sake of learning. Now, grades are the only thing that matter. So, I get a good grade and I move on.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be impossible to have a school without any sort of grade or form of assessment. But, I also think that school systems could be restructured so that a formal "exam" isn't the final decision of your future. We are a society filled with tests. Tests that are unable to evaluate our true intelligence. If we somehow are given more incentive to learn for the sake of learning or if grades didn't make or break your future, I think learning would be more exciting than it is today.
Ellen Quade, per 3
After studying the different types of parenting styles, I became more aware of how many friends I had that had authoritarian parents. It is very common in our society today. It puts extra unecessary pressure on the kids and motivates them to do well for their parents or the grade, not the learning. My family has always strongly believed in "lifelong learning". I have always aspired to learn for the knowledge, but I often end up learning for the grade and achievement aspect.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Alfie Kohn, in that punishments and rewards both change a student's behavior. When a punishment or reward is in effect, their motives seem to be altered. However, many students, including myself, would not try as hard in school if there were not grades and ways to assess the knowledge.
Mary Trimeloni-Period 6
Though I do strive to do well with grades because of college and etc. I wish I didn't need to always be working for some letter that is supposed to mean something.Grades have always been important to me, but of course sometimes I only try in a class because I want an A not because I actually want to learn something. I think that school does revolve around "achievements" and good grades and being see as a successful school even though each student should be looked at to see if the school is really successful. AP classes and honors classes do not make the school wonderful.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I was really engaged in learning for myself and not for a grade was psychology last semester. I don't know if it was because of my teacher or because of the subject but I know I didn't mind at all doing work in that class, it made me happy to just learn in there.
I think that grades are not about learning to a lot of people. I think a lot of high schoolers just try to get a good grade because of what good grades can do for them. Like for college, parents, and etc. Many people don't care about certain classes and are just there for the grade. Grades just show progress not learning. Someone can memorize vocab and get a good grade and not really learn anything.
I think it would be difficult to have a school without grades. I would love not having grades but on the other hand how would someone gauge their knowledge or know how well they are doing. To make students want to learn and not just to get grades would be make the learning connect to them and make it seem real and fun.
-Arielle Schwartz, 3rd hour
A lot of what Alfie said made sense. I agree with the idea that teachers need to make the curriculum more interesting for kids so that they'll be more intrinsically motivated to learn. Our school puts too much emphasis on earning good grades, and often times I find myself cramming for an exam, not because I want to learn the material, but because I want to get a good grade on a test.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I felt intrinsically motivated to do something is in my drawing class, because I've always loved art. Art is something that I do for myself, and I don't need outside encouragement to motivate me to improve.
I agree that grades are more about telling us how good we are at "learning". I don't think people at our school would be motivated to study if there wasn't the pressure to get good grades. Often times grades don't show how smart we are, but instead reflect how much time and effort we put into studying for the exam. Grades should instead reflect the amount of effort that we put int the class, which would be displayed in our desire to learn the material.
The only way to have a school without grades would be to have a school teach the material in such an interesting way that the students wouldn't need incentives to learn. If school was more interesting and less pressure was put on test grades, students would feel less stress and would have more desire to learn. As long as the material is interesting and class is fun, I think that students will be motivated to learn, intrinsically.
-Melvina S., 1st hour
The last time I remember feeling intrinsically motivated or excited about learning was basically each time I've taken Graphic Arts. I love the class and doing the assignments is honestly fun to me because it allows me to really be as creative as I want. I really see no value in the grade I get in the class.
ReplyDeleteI also do agree that grades are extrinsically motivating. We work to get them mainly to be told that were are doing a good job at learning. When I get an A, I almost always think "Wow, I must be doing good. I'll keep it up." This motivation is not based on my own personal goals, but the fact that I am looking to basically impress others and be told that I am doing well.
Grades do no represent real learning. Grades represent simply a person's level of interest in being seen as smart. What grades should stand for is a students effort and will to learn, there should be no outside forces involved.
There is no way to have a school without some sort of grading system. Whether it be A's and B's or a class rank, some system of grading needs to occur. Grades provide a school with visible proof of their students performance. Without grades, students would not try, and schools would have no way to judge how each student should best be taught/tailored to. Students would not try mainly because no one would ever see their judged performance, so there is no worried about doing poorly.
I believe that there is a way for us to be motivated by learning instead of just getting grades. If we could take classes for pure enjoyment or classes that were just for our personal interest, then I could see an increase in intrinsic motivation. When students are truly interested in what they are learning, it takes less outside rewards/incentives to get them to perform. Now, for a class like Environmental Science where we just do worksheets, I see no chance of that class every getting past a point where our motivation is not based on grades alone. But other than that, I see some hope.
Brett Ekblad
P1
I tend to have contrasting opinions with a lot of psychologists' beliefs, but can usually find some common ground. With motivation, I do agree that after expecting to receive some sort of incentive extrinsically, certain drives are diminished. However, there are plenty of things that keep being motivated intrinsically for different people, and come from their true passion. I remember specifically when there was a time that I received money for good grades. This worked as an incentive to keep me motivated, but after the incentive was no longer available (parents changed mind), I not only kept up my grades, but continued achieving at higher and higher levels.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the true meaning of grades, they do show the level at which a student has understood some material. There are, of course, exceptions, as many bright people can choose to not spend time working and still receive acceptable grades. Contrastly, there are people who can cram the night before a test and get an A, only to lose that knowledge within weeks. So, grades represent some sort of a combination of a student's natural intelligence, their work ethic, and their knowledge of the material. Grades SHOULD represent one's ability to understand the material, but should be reinforced by some sort of cumulative test to prove retention (I think it's called a final exam).
A school without grades would be anarchy, as there would be no proof of any effort, or at least understanding of a course. The intrinsic motivation for learning is what yields good grades and is important throughout life. Instead of finding external incentives, it should be taught more of how to find the intrinsic drive.
The interview with Alfie Kohn brought up an agreeable system of how to instill this intrinsic motivation. The three C's. By creating an environment where students can be content, in a safe learning community, and make their own choices, teachers can help students find their own inner drives for learning
Matt W. p. 1
I have often thought about what school would be like if there were no grades. After reading this article and wathing the videos, I find that I agree with almost everything Alfie Kohn has to say. I believe that the extrinsic motivation of grades detracts from the true purpose of school: learning. How is our society supposed to advance if youth is solely motivated by grades? In other countries that are not as fortunate as the United States, citizens value learning more. Kids in the U.S. take school for granted. Some of our grandparents were fortunate if they learned to read, or maybe even to write.
ReplyDeleteGrades do not represent how well one has learned something. Grades represent how much time someone spends working to be rewarded. I know this is a trend in the Barrington population. I have specific friends who literally go home and study until early morning. Funny, those people have high A's in all of their classes. I also know that they remember very little to nothing of what they "learned" because they were so focused on memorizing that they missed the real meaning and had no personal investment in the knowledge. These people are working for rewards, and rewards only.
In my perfect world, there would be no grades at all. This sounds like a stereotypical teenager statement, but I honestly believe it. The people who are self-motivated and have a true desire for knowledge should not have to subject themselves to a dogmatic, pedantic system of punishment and reward. I know I would be less stressed and a generally happier person if I could just go to school and soak up the knowledge. I want to learn for learing's sake, not because I have to get an A in the class to keep my GPA up, so that I can be accepted into a good college, so that I can be successful in life. It's a ridiculous chain of events.
Lauren Nelson
6th Hour
I agree with what Alfie had to say. but for the most part kids today don't fully put creativity and comprehension into what they are learning. they do whatever they can to strive for the highest grade possible. Schools today are all about the highest grades and achievement. They make kids work so hard and sometimes they dont realize that they are only trying for the A not because they care about the learning part of it but just because of what the outcome of the grade will be. The last time i was motivated to learn was 2nd and 3rd grade when my teacher taught us all how to do sign language. Whether is was learning the abc's, songs, or everyday words. It was a time that i looked forward to going to school everyday. We werent pressured to get the best grade on it, and we werent rewarded for doing it the best, we learned it and took our time into understanding the language.
ReplyDeleteI believe that grades aren't about learning. i believe its more towards what the outcome of getting good grades are. For the most part if you get good grades your in good terms with your parents, and you are able to get into the college you want. Theres alot of people whose high grades are based off of only the memorization. The people who can memorize the entire subject can then go and take the test and get a good grade, but in doing so they learn nothing from it. Grades more represent your memorization and your effort into certain assignments. Grades i believe should be more based off your understandment in the class on assignments and projects. grades that are based off of test scores are unfair due to some people who understand it all but are horrible test takers.
Having a school without grades seems like it would be very difficult. Without grades you would never be able to recognize your understandment of that subject. In order to get students to learn the learning portion needs to be made more exciting and less boring. The teachers need to make the material student are trying to learn about fun and understandable.
-paige olis, 1st hour
I totally agree with Alfie Kohn. The example about how a teacher says, " I like the way Cecilia is sitting so nice and quiet ready to work," is a perfect example. It doesn't really teach kids anything it just manipulates kids into doing things. I also like his idea of the 3 C's, teachers should model their teaching around things that are worth teaching so that kids will choose to learn.
ReplyDeleteI personally work in hard to get good grades rather than to learn which isn't right, but I don't see how schools can not have grades and still have the kids actually try because you can't trust that they will want to learn.
Alyssa Wahl
Period 6
In school students strive to get the A. I would question that A though: does it actually represent what a student has learned? Personally I get relatively high grades, but most of the time I can’t remember things that I’ve learned. After a test is over then the information that was required to perform well on it is extraneous information that I likely won’t need to remember for the rest of my life. Having little or no incentive to remember the material I will not remember it because I don’t see a point in remembering it. Doing well in school is only to get into a good college so that you can get a good job and have a good starting salary in your career. The environment in which students learn and do things is perpetually spurred by some kind of incentive, there is no reason or want to learn because we have been conditioned to be able to recall a topic or idea to answer a question on a test and then never think about it after it. I find that I agree with Alfie Kohn that rewards are detrimental to a healthy learning environment because it conditions students that eventually become the world that nothing is worth doing unless you have some incentive or reward at the end of the task at hand. I feel that learning is not happening in schools and that something needs to change before the learning environment will support its own foundation: learning.
ReplyDelete-Connor Thompson 6th Period
Kate Hasse
ReplyDeletePeriod 3
I feel that every person is affected by extrinsic motivators every single day. For example Alfie Kohn wrote this article to achieve a reward. His reward may have not been money, but I feel it would be rewarding to write an article that affects people to the point where classes are blogging about it and agreeing with it. It is rewarding to have someone side with you. It is competing to have someone challenge your writing. Alfie says rewards and competition “warp the relationships between the child and his or her peers—and it undermines interest in the task itself.”
If rewards diminish someone’s interest from a specific task or undermine their interest in that task, then we would no longer find anyone that holds a job and loves it because they are rewarded by pay. This article to me is saying that everyone working for money (a reward) has lost interest in the task they are doing to get the money. Which I believe is not true. I work with patients all the time and ask if they still love what they do and 99% of the time they all say yes.
This article criticizes punishment, rewards, motivation, and techniques to teach good behavior yet its suggestions to motivate someone are ultimately to change their entire community, the content they learn, and by making choices that they feel are appropriate and not by following someone else behavior. They article states that you should give “unconditional support and encouragement and love” without praise (a verbal reward). How do give “unconditional support and encouragement and love” without extrinsically motivating someone or “praising” them? If you stand by someone’s side and say nothing while they fight through a difficult task, is that support? If you motivate someone to complete a task; once the task is completed will they be satisfied? For example a child tries his best at a soccer game, scores a goal, and then walks off the field satisfied with himself. He was not intrinsically motivated, but extrinsically motivated to score and get the reward of winning the game. If he didn’t know that he had won the game and walked off the field to find a parent staring back at him, so they won’t give him a reward or punishment, the child wouldn’t feel as satisfied with his performance as he did before his encounter with his parents. A simple smile is “rewarding” the child’s task, so now the child will not seek their parent’s approval, but find others who will approve. Now the child has developed a sense of doubt. The ideas of this article make sense, but without every single person applying them, a child can simply observe others and lose motivation in themselves.
What is motivation? What will drive someone to do something? We reward ourselves by being satisfied with our own work. (Intrinsically motivated) How can we develop the feeling of satisfaction if we don’t know what is satisfying? I feel we learn to be intrinsically motivated through extrinsic motivations. Life is a competition. (Survival of the fittest) Although we may “warp the relationships between the child and his or her peers” through extrinsic motivation, that may be the thing that children need to develop to succeed in a nation such as ours. It may “undermine the interest in the task itself”, but the reward of money takes away certain struggles in life that lead to unhappiness. If succeeding causes happiness; in the end, rewards and punishments may not be the best thing morally, but they will make a more successful and happy nation as a whole.
In the interview Punished by Rewards, I agree with Alfie Kohn. I think he is right when he says that children want to learn, that is until the grade becomes more importent than the learning experiences itself.
ReplyDeleteChildren lose interest in learning when they are rewarded based on a standrad grading scale; however, the real reward should be the feeling of achievement the child gets from the learning experience itself. When learning about something you are truely interested in learning the knowlogde you gain from that will stick with you longer than any flashcard based memorization type that we tend to see in schooling today.
This, in a way, means that grades really only represent how well you can memorize information and your priorities in general. A student whos main priority is the grade they receive will put more effeort into packing all the information they can possibly think of into their mind so that they will do well on a test and tend to have good time managment and homework ethic. That, however, doesnt mean they are smart. If you ask many students about information they learned in class last year they will most likely not be able to recall half of it, yet they recieved an A on the test while they were learning it. On the otherhand a student that may have a C average may not do their homework and may have poor study methods, that doesnt mean they are dumb. If you ask them Im sure there is at least one thing they know inside and out. It really just goes back to what makes you tick.
However, I dont think a school can really function without a grading scale. Becasue without some sort of motivation nothing will get done. Schools need to find a better way of delivering information and truely catch the interest of the students.
Sarah Goes-Platz Per. 1
I agree that students like school and then when grades start to become an issue, their motivation turns to getting good grades rather than purely learning. For example, the only reason i have been motivated to get good grades is college... and to make my parents happy. But i would be motivated if there was some other incentive. Because of this and my lack to want to learn everything to its fullest extent, i do not remember every single thing i have learned, although i do remember the things i was interested in. I think it would be very hard to have a school without a grading system. Without it there would be no standard and no way to tell if a student was doing exceptionally or very poorly. It would be extremely hard for a student to understand how they were doing compared to other students. Grades help students with the motivation they need to succeed in school.
ReplyDeleteAlexis Buchel 1st hour
Although grades are very important to me , I agree with the first video and how schools main focus is on how well students do and what their acheivments are. With that said, I really only focus getting a good grade, and not really enjoy the learning itself.Grades represent rewards in school. They also show how well you are doing in school. I only take honors and AP classes only because colleges will see that I like to challenge myself, but in reality I don't necessarily enjoy it. This leads me to agree with the second video and how the more you reward people the less interest they have. This is because you only focus on the reward that you are getting, and not the thing that you are trying to get the reward for.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kohn and how he said that none of us like having the very things we desire used as levers to control our behaviors. This means that we have to work hard for something that sometimes we don'T enjoy. This leads me to agree with him saying that if you are doing something boring your interest level has probably already hit rock bottom. So again, I would not really want to do something if I am already bored of doinf it. Lastly, I agree with Kohn saying that students who are doing a task that matters to them, specific skills can be taught naturally. I would definitely be more interested in something if I actually cared about it.
Katie Stallone, 3rd hour
After watching the two videos and reading Punished by Rewards, I agree with a lot of what Alfie Kohn said. I feel like grades are in place to make you do your work and to punish you if you don’t do your work because if you get a bad grade on a test, or if you don’t do your homework, your grade will go down and that can hurt you by getting you grounded by your parents or by not getting you into the college that you wanted to get into. I feel like a lot of school is based on punishment and rewards because every class has grades and you are punished by getting bad grades if you don’t do homework or do well on tests and you are rewarded by getting good grades if you do do your homework and get good grades on tests. You are not necessarily learning the material that is assigned in class, you are only getting everything completed in order to receive a good grade, not to actually learn the material for future use.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I felt intrinsically motivated to learn something new was and excited about something I was learning was last year in chemistry class when the teacher demonstrated an extra fun experiment when we put pretzels in a solution that froze them and when you placed them on your tongue, they stuck as if you were licking a frozen pole in the winter time. This was just a fun extra demo that the teacher gave us, and we didn’t need to do any worksheets or tests on it, it was just for fun and I was internally motivated to learn more about this solution and how it worked and why just because I thought it was interesting and fun, not because I knew I had to learn about it in order to get a good grade on a test or a homework assignment.
I do agree that the hunt for grades is not about learning but about being told how well you are doing at “learning” because people don’t normally learn things in school just to learn them for fun, we learn so that we get a good grade for what we learned and after “learning” whatever it is we learned, normally we don’t remember much about what we “learned.” When finals are taken we need several review days and study packets to complete in order to remember all the things we “learned” that semester, but if we had actually “learned” the material the first time, we wouldn’t need so many review days or as big packets to study from.
Grades do not represent real learning, they represent how quickly someone is able to study a certain subject and get a good grade for it then move on to the next subject, normally not retaining much of the information later. Grades should represent how well people learn a subject that they are studying. We take classes in school to get good grades for what we learn.
I don’t believe there is a way to have a school without grades because many colleges base their acceptance on grades of students and a little on the actual person. Also, to get a good job in life you have to have a good resume which means you have to have good preview work experience which means you had to get good grades to get that job. The closest class I have this year to not having actual grades is my physics class. My teacher grades on a 1-5 scale, 1 being the worst, 5 the best. She grades on whether or not she believes you show understanding in the material and then those 1-5’s are turned into actual percentages, but it is the closest to grading by actual learning that I’ve seen in a class. This is coming close to a school that has not grades. I would start the school out with a grading scale like this one, and work my way into no grades at all. At the very end of the year, after giving several tests, quizzes and homework assignments that are not graded, I would determine how well the student understands the material and either pass the student or recommend that they take the class again. This would then show on their transcript which would be seen by colleges.
The only way to foster an interest in putting effort into actually learning things rather than fostering putting effort into getting grades is to show students what they could do with they knowledge they acquire and not give a grade for being able to do something or not being able to.
Natalie Robertaccio Period 3
While I do agree that intrinsic motivation is necessary for the most true sense of learning, I do see the necessity of grades in our school system. Personally, the only time I am truly intrinsically motivated to learn/study a topic is when I am thoroughly interested in the topic from a personal interest in the subject. When it comes to classes such as math, I find that it is extremely difficult for me to "want" to learn in that class. I listen everyday simply to be able to do well on tests. The true interest in math is rarely present. In this sense, this class is really just a requirement for me--and not an actual source of learning and entertainment. Even when preparing for tests, I simply memorize formulas and spit them back out. I don't have a deep connection/comprehension of the formulas, why they are true, etc. This is often noticeable during finals, when I find a need to re-memorize all the theorems, while with other classes that I am more interested in, I find myself simply remembering all of the information.
ReplyDeleteTo me, grades are not always a true representation of a student's actual learning. While grades may represent a student's ability to "learn" this information, it is very possible that they are simply throwing back everything that they memorized, with no deep understanding. To be honest, there is a high likelihood that the only reason I have an "A" in my math class is because I am able to remember the theorems and spit them back out come test time. I am sure that there are other individuals in my class that have a lower grade, but actually understand the "why" and "how" of each theorem, etc. Thus grades are likely not the best assessment of a student's learning.
Unfortunately, I don't feel that we can go through school without grades. Grades are the extrinsic motivators, leading to a disinterest in learning, and simply a search for the right letter on our transcript. We need to bring more intrinsic motivation to our studies. Teachers could possibly make their subject more relatable for their students and more interesting. Instead of teaching what a theorem is, they could discuss its origin, how it came to be, and maybe some real-life applications. Furthermore, I think it is important for the classroom environment to be comfortable, so that class discussions are common. With a comfortable, open environment students are more likely to openly express their confusion/struggle to grasp the material. This would also allow students to want to learn more, as they are comfortable to discuss their views on certain topics. Once their opinions are valued by their peers and authority figures, a student is more likely to be interested in what they are learning, as they are comfortable feeling a certain way about it: not just reading and remembering.
Ellen Groble
6th Hour
Until reading Alfie Khron's article on rewards I never viewed rewards as a negative concept. Alfie makes many good points about the "punishments of rewards", but I do not share the same views as him. I think things such as praise and attention are very good motivators and should not be viewed as a type of punishment, part of human nature is the desire to be accepted and praise and compliments go hand in hand with acceptance.
ReplyDeleteUnlike many of my friends, growing up my parents never rewarded my brothers or I with money for good grades. We learned at a young age that the grades we earned were through hard work and that that was what was expected of us. Although there was no direct reward for our grades, with A's and B's I was given more freedom, later cerfew, and more privleges.
Where Khron goes wrong is that his ideas are not practical for the kindergartner, or the teenager who sometimes need a "pick me up" or that light at the end of the tunnel. Without rewards such as grades that contribute to college acceptance and parental approval there would be no intrinsic motivation. I see it as extrinsic motivation leads to intrinstic motivation.
For example, when you are little you are given a reward for learing how to use the toliet, for me it was the Hungry-Hungry Hippos game. At the time that was an extrinsic motivator, however, today I don't need a game from my parents to motivate me to use the restroom. This shows that intrinsic motivation is a learned behavior that starts with extrinsic motivation.
Maureen Doyle --> 3
I have always loved to learn, but for a great portion of my school career I was unmotivated to excel in academics. I would go to class and listen and be captivated even, but I wouldn't want to put in the effort.
ReplyDeleteAlfie Kohn's article emphasizes that motivation can be diminished by extrinsics, especially if one is already intrinsically motivated in that subject. This is what i was feeling from the beginning of middle school until freshman year. I remain very motivated to come to school everyday and learn something new, especially since i now have much more control over my subjects.
The emphasis of school these days is commonly the letter grade, the GPA, and other representations of another's perception of your learning. So, yes, i do agree that the quest for grades is not about learning, but in fact about someone else's interpretation of your learning. This is exactly the true representation of letter grades, GPA, and the other secondary reinforcers.
Asking what grades represent assumes that i would have grades at all. I would propose a system based off of teacher comments, not off of common standards. Such is the value of the teacher recommendation. It provides a qualitative aspect. Letter grades provide quantitative data for learning, something which cannot be assessed by such means. This is how i would model a school without grades.
My school would be much harder to run for this reason alongside others. It would be more work for teachers, there would be a greater need for resources, and very possibly a dramatic cost increase. But, if you want a culture which foster a love for true learning then you must invest in it. You will get what you invest into the school system out of the school system.
Trevor Thiess, Sixth
Throughout my childhood I have had an older sister who has always been smarter than me, no way around, if we were to measure IQ she would smoke me. and this gift of intelligence became apparent to her around the time she was in sixth grade, when she didn't need to work and could still maintain high grades. Noticing the praise my sister received for her grades, I kept mine up always trying to show that I was just as intelligent as she was. By the time she entered high school she had developed a poor work ethic, but she was able to get by with it because of her natural talent. By the time she was doing calculus she was struggling and I was keeping my grades up. I felt that I would finally be recognized as the intellectual of the family. That praise which i desired never came and as my sister went off to college I was stuck wondering who I had to live up to, where I was going to prove myself.
ReplyDeleteI can remember very little of what I learned in my first two years of high school, even less of middle school, and elementary school is already just a blur to me. What I can remember is dreading school and all things related to it and I believe that is because I was learning so I could have pride, not so I could have an education. Over the past two years of high school I have become less harsh on my hunt for grades, and have taken classes I wanted to take, not classes I thought would make me look smarter. I continue to try and excel in the classes but only because it is what I expect of myself, not because I need to see the A on my report card.
Though I no longer need an A on my report card I still like the sight of them and I realize that I would not be the same kid had it not been for grades. Grades are not just a reflection of knowledge, my sister and I are proof of that, they are a reflection of knowledge and work ethic. And while grades might be a stressor or cause people to enjoy the work less, grades are necessary for school. While I feel that elementary school through high school is nothing more than day care, the fact is that we have to go through what we do not enjoy in order to come out as better people.
If we are to follow Alfie Kohn's ideas about education then who knows what our education system would become. It is understandable that it might be possible to hold a child's attention with keeping the simplistic parts of a subject interesting but what happens when we get into topics such as punctuation or geometry where interesting might not be an option? Without allowing a free form of education we only ranked 25th in math and 21st in science what would happen if we didn't make students learn the boring parts of school such as different placements of commas? Though I wish school could be presented differently, and in theory I believe Alfie Kohn is on to something, we are in the most functional form of school right now.
~Basil Sabbak 3rd hour
I honestly see no point to grades. Yes, they do keep you on task, but do you really learn anything? I know I truly don't learn anything if a grade is involved. It is more about memorization just to keep in in you head long enough to take a test and it's gone. I know this because after finals and having the long weekend I come back the material that I memorized for the finals begins to wear away and I no longer remember it. That is not learning.
ReplyDeleteI feel that today, there really is not a lot of "learning" going around in any school. Grades do not in any way represents how much a person as learned or achieved. Someone might just be a good test taker and get a lot of answers right that they truly didn't know. Maybe a student does all their homework, but when it comes to test time they freeze up and bomb the test. This is why i believe there are better ways to judge how much a person has achieved and learned in a class.
Another thing I have noticed is that some, not all of the teachers at the high school seam to teach for the money. The school requires a curriculum such that some teachers just rush through the information just to meet the schools requirements. I can understand that teachers need some kind of guidance, but it would be more important to me if the teacher taught us the material in depth rather than just a quick skim and move on. There is almost too much information being thrown at us everyday that students can't absorb all the information.
Lastly, relating to the video, how Stanly doesn't care about the bills is a perfect example of how if something means nothing to us, we won't do it. Once we are rewarded for doing something, we most likely will keep doing it unless the rewards stop coming. That is one of the danger at this point in time to get rid of grades is that kids won't care. But if we start at an early age to get kids to enjoy learning, I think we would be teaching the youth the right motives to learn and therefore allow them to become engage in their entire school career.
Jon Furmanski, Per 1
As a second semester senior, I have 0 motivation to get any grades higher than a B. The obvious reason is SPURS so then I do not have to take the dreaded finals. AP tests would be another factor in motivation but because those will not be for some time, they are not currently motivating me. The last time I felt intrinsically movtivated to learn something new would be when my dad taught me about the Stock Market and how to succeed. Last time I felt intrinsically motivated in school to learn would have been to learn how to make something combust into flames without no source of a flame (AP Chem). Other than pyromania, school has little to motivate me to learn, other than success in life.
ReplyDelete"Do you agree that the hunt for grades is not about learning but about being told how well you are doing at 'learning'?" Yes I agree with this statement. Grades represent your knowledge in a certain course. Grades should represent you intelligence. No you could not have school without grades, and no it would not work. It would only work if they did what the Louis & Clark college do and that is to give personal written evaluations and assessments. Kids from a young age should choose what they want to learn so they are interested in that profession.
DVMax...no paragraphs
I agree with the points presented in the videos and article. I feel like people should be motivated by their intrinsic motivation rather than extrinsic, however, i feel like that would be very hard to accomplish in every situation.
ReplyDeleteGrades have become a huge part of every student's life because that is what schools take into consideration while assessing a certain individual. I think grades reflect how much effort you put into a class, which in turn results in your knowledge of the material. If you do well in a class, it shows that you have put in a lot of time to fully understand the material presented and get help with the confusing parts. All the top students really care about their classes and strive to do well in them. In our society, we are impacted a lot by grades because they basically determine our future. I think it is important to have them because they are fair and reward the right individuals. The people that study hard and participate in class deserve to have more opportunities available to them than the people that slack off and sleep in class every day.
Ideally, it would be great to have schools without grades and learn just for the sake of learning, but realistically it would be very difficult because very few students would feel obligated or motivated to study and learn. Everyone has intrinsic motivation but i doubt anyone would direct it towards learning if they didnt have to, especially subjects that they do not have an interest in.
Agata Glowacka
Period 1
The last time I felt intrinsincally motivated to learn something new was actually taking psychology class. I've been waiting to take it since freshman year after students reviews on the class saying they had a good time and such. Some students however had a negative output towards the class because they said it was hard due to the different views on the test that can trick someone. Its because Psychology arent like history tests that are facts and matching. For example, they are a given story and tells following symtoms and you try and match it with the list of disorders. It motiviated me to take this class because I wanted to test myself in a new way.
ReplyDeleteLearning and being told how well you are trying to learn are two both very different subjects. I disagree with the question because the will to learn motivates people to try their hardest to learn the subject in class. Grades often take away our motivation because even if we do like studying the material, we dont like getting bad grades. It gets frusterating when you study hard for a test and you dont get the grade you hope to get no matter how many hours you put in. But in society, grades have a higher standpoint from learning because its all about the grade you get.
Grades represents achievement about knowing the subject. It shows you have been learning whether you were trying or not trying in class to learn more about the subject. They should represent your study methods because everybody has different study methods. Some have better than others. Your grade is dependant on how much hours you put into the class depending on who you are because some are better than others. There are two different ways to foster with grades: either by getting to grade or going beyond the subject. Some people just go for the grades because they dont care about the subject, they want the good grade. Some people who enjoy learning would go beyond the subject and try to learn more and more about the class more than the people who just want the good grade because they are more dedicated in their active learning to learn not just for the achievement, but for what your getting out of it.
Jeffrey Moy, 3rd hour
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ReplyDeleteAlfie Kohn's article Punished by Rewards illustrates what happens in school. Students are rewarded with a letter which, in turn, determines your GPA. Some students will live by this average and will mold their class schedules in order to boost it.
ReplyDeleteA great example of Kohn's theory is most kids' studying habits. We are told to be reading from our text every night. If I were to take a guess as to how many kids actually do this, I'd guess under 15%. The bulk of the students will read the chapter the night before the test - because that is what will determine our grade.
When colleges review all applicants, they try to find the smartest ones that they know will finish college and possibly go on to make a name for themselves. The base most of the selection process on grades. I think that this is justified because grades reflect the effort one puts in to their work. Some mediocre students are really geniuses that have a different set of priorities.
For now, I think grades are necessary in the education department. Without the desire to get an A, who would study if it made no difference. And although it seems as though we are memorizing the material we learn, in a world without grades, people would get nothing done because peoples' interests vary.
Grant Van der Voort
Period 1
I agree with what Alfie Kohn is saying about how students are less motivated when they have rewards. I remember in elementary school when we had to read a certain amount of books for a prize, it was more about just doing it because of the prize instead of enjoying the books. Then after we got the prize, there seemed to be no point in reading for fun. Same applies to grades in High School. Students try hard in school because they want to get good grades, get into a good college and have a good career, not because of the learning. The last time I was excited to learn something was last semester in Psych I, because I really enjoyed how my teacher taught through experiments and I enjoyed going to class because the information we covered was interesting to me.
ReplyDeleteI also think that grades aren't really about learning. It is simply how well you can retain the information given and how much you study to remember facts. It would be nice if schools didn’t have grades. That way school wouldn't feel so competitive and stressful. If there were ways to make class really fun, kids would want to come because they want to learn rather than learning because they have to.
-Laura Schweizer, 1st hour
It has been quite a long time since I have actually been sincerely excited about being in school and learning. All the pressures that come with school take away from the fun that could be had being there. I believe that grades take away from the fun of learning. There is too much stress of being judged based off how well you are doing. That stress affects performance, so it ends up being a circle of nonsense. Grades don't entirely reflect learning. A lot of what grades is, is the reflection of the amount of motivation put into school. People rate kids as A-students, B-students, F-students. It's not because they're not smart, because anyone who goes to Barrington has the potential to get a great education. It's just a matter of if they're applying themselves. Application of the self comes with motivation. If there is no motivation, application of the self goes down, as does grades. Grades should represent performance, but they don't with most people. There can't really be a school without grades though because grades are a motivator. Not necessarily the best one, but they are one. It's up to the student to put interest into school. It's hard to be made interesting at some points, but with the right people and right teaching style and an actual interest in the subject, students can go far.
ReplyDeleteMariah Winkates- 3rd Period
Grades are all extrensic motivation. Someone can be excellent in one subject, but not be so well in the other subjects. I as a student feel compelled to get good grades only because my parents and teachers force me to. Grades are only a guideline in how you're good in only some specific subject. You may not receive good grades, but doesn't mean you're not intelligent.
ReplyDeleteStanford Insurance (or something very similar to that name) - the owner dropped out of school at 16. He had a child when he was only 14 years old. At age 18, he started his own insurance company. Right now this company is worth billions.
Bill Gates - dropped out of college to start his business.
Every single human being is motivated to learn. But we don't necessarily want to learn the same things. I mean one person could not care about History, when he wants to learn more about business. If someone is motivated to pursue a career in Law Enforcement, how will Human Bio help them?
Grades are just a labeling system. Grades do not indicate how much you have learned. Many teachers now only apply the few basic levels of learning: memorizing, applying, and evaluating. It is hard, but school teaches what to think, not how to think.
We as human beings all have motivation. But our motivation and inspiration goes towards different ideas. Not everyone is motivated internally to do well in history or science; but motivated in other topics and ideas. That's why some kids don't care about school.
- Armin Tadayyon
Period 3
This is Jayne's extra supplement because she forgot a couple questions:
ReplyDeleteThe last time I was personally motivated was when I wanted to paint a picture of my brother on the beach in my AP Painting class because I just loved the picture. Thats what learning should be about... doing what you love. A place without grades would be a school with more of a focus on personal growth rather than rank or tests. This would be a much happier atmosphere almost like being back in elementary school!!!!
To tell you the truth, I can't remember the last time I felt motivated to actually learn the subject rather than just for the grade. Our society is based on a grade principle and that will never change. It is impossible to get children to learn something becuase they want to. When they grow up a bit, that is when the get a choice. (college)
ReplyDeleteI believe that grades represent how well a person wants to succeed in life. You are motivated to get good grades so you can get into a good college so you can get a good job with alot of money. Our society is based around getting money and survival.
There are many ways to get kids motivated to actually learn the material rather then going for the grade. All you do is have to make the class fun and intertaining. For example, I have Mr. Conell as my english teacher for this year. I absolutely love his class, it is so funny and interesting. I usually dislike english becuase I am bad at it, but with a sense of humor and a comfortable atmosphere, I actually want to go to his class and learn.
- Sean McGaha (3rd)
This is Kimmy's post that was not submitted correctly:
ReplyDeleteAfter watching Kohn's video on motivation, I've found that I agree with the majority of what he says. However, he is very quick to assume that most students are not motivated by extrinsic motivation. Praise and encouragement are desired as humans and can be great tools for motivation. By no means should we disregard extrinsic motivation to the point where we avoid rewarding positive behavior with compliments.
Since I love to play the piano, it is very simple for me to sit and play for hours on end with new music. This is primarily because it is one of my greatest passions. Any music class or writing class motivates me to do well simply because I enjoy learning the material. Most English classes provoke a lot of thinking for me and I don't mind engaging in conversation or debate in English classes. Overall, the only way to engage students in their studies is if you offer them classes that fuel their passions.
Grades are not estimators of intelligence or how much you learn. Grades are simply a symbol of how much you study the night before. There are some students that are extremely talented in a given subject, but don't try at all...but there are also those students that work extremely hard to learn the material, but it doesn't come very easily for them. Because there can be such a difference in learning styles, it is only necessary for a teacher to base a large portion of the student's grade on the amount of effort put forth into the class.
A school entirely run without grades would be very difficult to function because there needs to be some basis for a grading system so that when student's apply to college they are put into a school that fits them academically.
I believe that Alfie Kohn hit the nail on the head when he talked about how motivation comes from within and cannot really be influenced by others without there being damage to ourselves. I've noticed how overtime the school system has become less exciting for me and more monotonous. As you get older, grades become less about the learning and more about cheating the system; take SPURS for example. It's almost ironic because the things that are supposed to be motivating us the whole time TO learn (grades) are what turn out to motivate us to almost not have to learn (get an okay grade, dont have to take the final). It is a tricky situation though, because i disagree with Alfie on his thought that everyone works the same. I believe some kids would never do schoolwork if there weren't grades. This idea also has to do with motivation; kids are motivated to do different things intrinsicly. I like music and expanding my knowledge of music theory and history, but others might find that horribly boring and be motivated to get better at a sport like soccer. By punishing kids for doing their best (which might not necessarily be A, or even B work), they have to work exponentially harder in that field when their intrinsic motivation and interests might be pulling them in a completely unrelated direction.
ReplyDeleteI believe the key to getting this concept is an understanding of the difference between force and motivation. When you force someone you are trying to mold them into a person they are not and are focusing on the negative aspects of their character, even if that is through rewards. If instead, the things that were motivating to them were explored and they were given the chance to flourish in these areas, we could continue to fill our society with the Einsteins and Mozarts of the world.
sorry the last comment was Katelyn Stermer 1st Hour
ReplyDeleteI agree with Alfie Kohn almost completely. It almost seems that students at times are no different than animals. Students will do extra assignments for extra credit, but some would not even look at work that is not manditory let alone actually complete it. My dog at times acts in similar ways. When I ask her to sit or roll over, she does not, but when I put a treat in my hand, she is ready to bend over backwards to anything I tell her to do.
ReplyDeleteGrades are different depending on the person. I do not feel grades are the best form of judging intelligence, rather a letter that rates ones ability to memorize things or 'know how' to take tests. Regardless individuals will decide whether or not they want to go to a good school or want to get a degree. Some do not care and others work hard to achieve.
Many different methods can be used in a classroom. One that would most likely work the best would be create an enjoyable environment. Stay away from these punishments and rewards, keep it simple and try to put the kids in a comfortable zone in which they can learn because they want to.
Dan Nally 1
I don't like grades. The only reason we try to get good grades is because we want to get into college so that we can get a job so that we won't be poor. If someone just cared about learning, it wouldn't matter what letter they got on their report card as long as they know they've learned something. It's extrinsic motivation that motivates us to get good grades, when it would be intrinsic motivation if it were a school where grades didn't exist. A lot of people probably wouldn't come to school, but a lot of people would because you want to be educated.
ReplyDeleteelle woodall 1st hour
I believe that school is inherently good, but that many factors, such as class rank (which BHS has thankfully gotten rid of), A's, pressure to get into a good college, etc. are all very detrimental to the whole experience. The whole point of school is to learn, and everyone learns in different ways, so how could anyone possibly think that every child would be motivated the same way by the same things? Because every child is different, and has different levels of self-motivation, I believe that early school years should be used to find out what the individual is interested in, what they are good at, and then build a curriculum from that. Also, I believe that the teacher-student relationship should be more of a mentor/guider-student relationship. If the student feels more helped by the teacher rather than being forced in the direction that the teacher wants, then they are more likely to do well in class because they do not want to dissapoint their teacher.
ReplyDeleteThe last time I felt intrinsically motivated to learn something was actually this semester for my Junior research paper. Our teacher allowed us to pick a topic that interested us, rather than just assigning one. Because I had a high level of control over the paper, I was able to write from passion and interest, rather than just because I had to do it. The quality of the work was much higher because I was interested in it.
Yes, I agree that the hunt for the elusive A is not about real learning, but about getting into the college that you want, about fulfilling certain quotas that the school has to adhere to for government reimbursement, and because to a certain extent its easier, because its what has always been done.
Yes, there is a way for a school to work without grades, but that would be in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. For a school to exist without grades would require a complete re-working of the school system, all the way down to pre-school (where rewards/punishments are increasingly rampant). The curriculum would have to be based on the individual student, not just what the state or country believes they should learn to become "educated". Again, every student is different, so its ridiculous that we are all learning very similar things. Yes, we all have to know how to read and write and do arithmetic, but besides that, school needs to be much more individualized.
-Caroline Gaffrig 6th hour
It is very difficult to remember the last time I was genuinely intrinsically motivated about what I was learning. I enjoy my U.S. history class, but I often feel I am only taking notes and doing the readings so that I will be able to do well on the tests, versus doing it just to learn something new.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with the statement that grades are less about what you are learning, and more about how well you are learning it. Sometimes I will feel like I really no the material for the test and could explain it really well, but end up doing very poorly on the tests.
Instead of representing whether or not a student may have attempted to learn the material, grades often portray whether or not a student has a natural amount of intelligence or perhaps if a student cheats.
It would be very difficult to create a school system not built around grades. Such a alteration in our current system would require a shift in not just the American high schools, but also our culture as a whole. We base so many of our decisions on test scores and the names of college, this would be a major change to a majority of the country.
I think a particularly easy way to foster a greater interest in what we are actually learning would be to un-weight students' GPAs. This idea would most likely never pass, but it would require students to put more thought into the classes they are taking instead of taking something for the 5.0.
Joey Gallagher Psych. 6th Hour